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Mayzyne_CURSED
08-21-2007, 02:12 AM
Charles Q. Choi
Special to LiveScience
LiveScience.com Mon Aug 20, 11:55 AM ET

A new concept for a time machine could possibly enable distant future generations to travel into the past, research now suggests.
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Unlike past ideas for time machines, this new concept does not require exotic, theoretical forms of matter. Still, this new idea requires technology far more advanced than anything existing today, and major questions remain as to whether any time machine would ever prove stable enough to enable actual travel back in time.

Time machine researchers often investigate gravity, which essentially arises when matter bends space and time. Time travel research is based on bending space-time so far that time lines actually turn back on themselves to form a loop, technically known as a "closed time-like curve."

"We know that bending does happen all the time, but we want the bending to be strong enough and to take a special form where the lines of time make closed loops," said theoretical physicist Amos Ori at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa. "We are trying to find out if it is possible to manipulate space-time to develop in such a way."

Many scientists are skeptical as to whether or not time travel is possible. For instance, time machines often are thought to need an exotic form of matter with so-called "negative energy density." Such exotic matter has bizarre properties, including moving in the opposite direction of normal matter when pushed. Such matter could theoretically exist, but if it did, it might be present only in quantities too small for the construction of a time machine.

Ori's latest research suggests time machines are possible without exotic matter, eliminating a barrier to time travel. His work begins with a donut-shaped hole enveloped within a sphere of normal matter.

"We're talking about these closed loops of time, and the simplest kind of closed loops are circles, which is why we have this ring-shaped hole," Ori explained.

Inside this donut-shaped vacuum, space-time could get bent upon itself using focused gravitational fields to form a closed time-like curve. To go back in time, a traveler would race around inside the donut, going further back into the past with each lap.

"The machine is space-time itself," Ori said. "If we were to create an area with a warp like this in space that would enable time lines to close on themselves, it might enable future generations to return to visit our time."

Ori emphasized one significant limitation of this time machine—"it can't be used to travel to a time before the time machine was constructed." His findings are detailed in the Aug. 3 issue of the journal Physical Review D.

A number of obstacles remain, however. The gravitational fields required to make such a closed time-like curve would have to be very strong, "on the order of what you might find close to a black hole," Ori told LiveScience. "We don't have any way of creating such strong gravitational fields today, and we certainly have no way of manipulating any such gravitational fields."

Even if time machines were technically feasible, the gravitational fields involved need to be manipulated in very specific, accurate ways, and Ori said his calculations suggest any time machine could be very unstable, meaning "the tiniest deviations might keep one from working. We need to explore the problem of stability of time machines further."

Theoretical physicist Ken Olum of Tufts University in Medford, Mass., who did not participate in this study, was skeptical concerning how this new model claimed to sidestep prior theoretical objections to time travel.

Still, Olum noted, "It's important if it's right—that there really is some kind of loophole. So this should be scrutinized very closely." The point of such work, he added, was to "expand the bounds of what's possible, what kind of things we can have and what kinds of things we cannot have."

Fraktal
08-21-2007, 09:06 AM
Time travel is so blah

Due to the law of conservation of mass, it would be impossible to kill someone in the past as a child, go back to your present, and they would be dead.

People don't just go *POOF*, unless you use anti-matter.. but w/e.

/sigh, pretty soon TimeCop won't be just a movie anymore...

Tronco
08-21-2007, 09:29 AM
Time travel is so blah

Due to the law of conservation of mass, it would be impossible to kill someone in the past as a child, go back to your present, and they would be dead.

People don't just go *POOF*, unless you use anti-matter.. but w/e.

/sigh, pretty soon TimeCop won't be just a movie anymore...


Nonsence. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed does not apply to uncreation. If said person never reached maturity, thier mature self would not go poof, the timeline would simply be altered to exclude thier presence.

Fraktal
08-21-2007, 09:42 AM
Nonsence. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed does not apply to uncreation. If said person never reached maturity, thier mature self would not go poof, the timeline would simply be altered to exclude thier presence.

You cannot destroy memories nor can you destroy something in another time from your time.

If someone kills my best friend John Doe in the past, and John Doe and I were drinking at a bar, he wouldn't just vanish at the bar. I wouldn't lose all memories of John.

Now, in the past when John was killed, I would grow up without him as a friend, and therefore you would alter the future in that particular time.

Two different worlds here, mine and the one you are trying to change.

Crackaelf
08-21-2007, 09:54 AM
Perhaps the world you were living in just ceases to exist and only the new time-line, where-in john is dead, remains.

Tronco
08-21-2007, 09:59 AM
You cannot destroy memories nor can you destroy something in another time from your time.

If someone kills my best friend John Doe in the past, and John Doe and I were drinking at a bar, he wouldn't just vanish at the bar. I wouldn't lose all memories of John.

Now, in the past when John was killed, I would grow up without him as a friend, and therefore you would alter the future in that particular time.

Two different worlds here, mine and the one you are trying to change.

Destroy memories.... of the person that never existed... If you HAVE memories of people that never existed, you need more help than I can give.

I guess I'll repeat myself... NO he wouldn't vanish because he was never atthe bar with you to begin with, he's dead, he's been dead for years. You're not at the bar, you're home playing WoW, because you have no firends. Someone keeps going back in time to kill them all to keep you focused on raiding... and yes... I'm the one doing it.

Fraktal
08-21-2007, 10:46 AM
Destroy memories.... of the person that never existed... If you HAVE memories of people that never existed, you need more help than I can give.

I guess I'll repeat myself... NO he wouldn't vanish because he was never atthe bar with you to begin with, he's dead, he's been dead for years. You're not at the bar, you're home playing WoW, because you have no firends. Someone keeps going back in time to kill them all to keep you focused on raiding... and yes... I'm the one doing it.

You killed Johny!!!

No but there will be two "worlds" of me in it. The one where I have no friends, and the one where I am at the bar with John.

There is no way time would be something constant, it would be changing, and have a bazillion different variations of it.

Unless you kill Johny at MY present, he wouldn't die.

Tronco
08-21-2007, 11:06 AM
You killed Johny!!!

No but there will be two "worlds" of me in it. The one where I have no friends, and the one where I am at the bar with John.

There is no way time would be something constant, it would be changing, and have a bazillion different variations of it.

Unless you kill Johny at MY present, he wouldn't die.

Welcome to the multiverse... There would in fact be infinite realities involved. The only real question is this... say I'm in reality A where Johny is your friend at the bar... I go back, waste Johnny like it ain't no thang... When I return to the present, have I in fact placed MYSELF in the alternate reality where he was always dead by my hands? Or have I placed you in the new reality defined by my actions? Does the origonal Fraktal keep drinking as though nothing ever happened or does that Fraktal cease to be, replaced by future-friendless-Fraktal?

Archterra
08-21-2007, 01:15 PM
Theory of Gravity -> Theory of Flight

There is a good reason these two principals are only theorys still. :)

Alexandrious
08-21-2007, 09:34 PM
sighs too many people playin Chrono Trigger/Cross in here....

Cilus
08-24-2007, 10:47 AM
Time travel is always a stick conversation, but this is my take.

Traveling in the past is technically traveling in the future and here is why. Yes, you are traveling in the past, but to you and your own concessness you are in the present and pressing forward into the future. Time for you still ticks on, but the world around you is being "set" backwards into the past. You still age and you still feel the effects of time. Thus you are technically not traveling into "your" past, you are rather traveling into "your" future. If you go back in time and "kill" yourself you do not cease to exist simply because you are in your own timeline, one of an infinate many. The future of the world and the timeline that you have now influenced may change, but you remain and your memories remain as you have technically not traveled into "your" past.

If you were to travel into "your" past you would immediatly enter that exact moment in time as it happened and exactly as it were back at that time. You would not have memories or experiences of the future. This sort of travel I believe to be impossible for we would never know wheter or not we actually traveled into the past.

Think of idea of multiple timelines as like this. You stand in front of a mirror and see your reflection. Now place a mirror behind you and you can now see the reflection of the mirror an infinate amount of times. The only limit to how many mirrors there are is by your ability to make out the reflections. Thus the possible timelines are the same. There are an infinate amount of possibilities and all "time traveling" will do is influence one of those timelines that pertains to you.

Another example. Lets say two people time travel at the EXACT same time. We have person A and person B. Lets say person A kills person B as a child. In person A's timeline person B no longer exists and would never have been able to travel back in time and what not. This does not mean however, that person A has not traveled back in time and done whatever it is that he has done in his timeline.

Essencially all person B has done is influenced his timeline. While, person A is still alive and well in his timeline. Both people have still accomplished something, thus they are still in "there" present and pressing into the future.

Mayzyne_CURSED
08-24-2007, 01:57 PM
As Above, So Below

Think about it.

Entanglement.